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Fire in the Water, Earth in the Air: Legends
of West Texas Music
"Indeed, Oglesby's introduction of more
than two dozen musicians who called Lubbock home should be required
reading not only for music fans, but for Lubbock residents and
anyone thinking about moving here. On these pages, music becomes
a part of Lubbock's living history."
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-continued
from page
2- Cary: It’s journalism. It’s just journalism. It’s like playing the role of the reporter and just looking at what you see, and then trying to figure out some way to put meter to it and put rhyme to it and everything. Chris: Well, and calling "Bullshit." I mean, a lot of Human Masquerade are songs that could really piss somebody off…But I think a lot of these people who get pissed off at you, if they heard what you were really sayin’, would realize that you are really pretty much on their side. Don’t you think? Cary: I think so. This happens to me, too. Somebody will say, "You know, at first you pissed me off because of something you said about…" - y’know, the President or Jesus or whatever - They’ll come up to me later and say, "I didn’t even talk to you that night, two or three months ago when I first saw you, because I didn’t get the sarcasm;" and they'd say, "I am sorry. I was wrong about what you’re doin’ here." I had some Black people get mad at me at Stubb’s one night. There were some guys workin’ in the kitchen sent a note to the stage… Chris: This is the Stubb’s in Lubbock? Cary: Yea. And they basically were saying that they were gonna’ "take care" of me. And the reason they were is because all they kept hearing…I’ve got a song: "What If God Is a Woman and Jesus is a Black Man?" And I think that they were just hearing the words "Black Man" repeated over and over again by a White guy, and it pissed them off. ‘Cause they thought, "Who’s Whitey over there talking about Blacks?" But the song is not against them at all! It’s just the opposite. But all they kept hearing was the word: "Black…Black… Black." And so… Chris: And unfortunately, in Lubbock that probably sounded almost like a cuss word. Cary: Yea. I understand. There will eventually be more problems in this country. How is it gonna’ get better? I’ve written a song called "Fatherless Child." And I don’t know if you’ve ever even heard it but…You got these kids… I went into a convenience store late one night in East Lubbock…and
I thought I wasn’t gonna’ get out of there with my
damn shoes, y’know. I thought they were gonna’ git
me. ‘Cause it was four o’clock in the morning. And
Richard [Bowden] was hungry, and we were trying to get out of
the East side of town and he wanted to pull into this convenience
store. If you really think about it, these kids…Some of
these kids that are gangsters, if you wanta’ call ‘em
that—Black, White, Brown, it doesn’t matter—they
are who they are because that’s all they have. They don’t
have anything else. [Cary's voice is almost
drowned out by the sound of a siren going by.] ...As the
cop drives by to go get one of ‘em right now… Chris: You have a regular, secure job in Lubbock. But for some reason you feel the need to get up on stage and call "bullshit!" on all that like Jack Burk taught you to. I think Jesus was the biggest "bullshit" caller in the world; And that’s how you get nailed up on a cross, basically...is you yell "bullshit" too loud… Cary: Yea. You gotta’ watch that, I think. I sometimes feel foolish because I say the things that I say because…The foolishness is the part where they take you off to jail somewhere. But then you’d be a damn fool not to say something. I mean, do you just walk around with a hook in your nose? And let our newscaster decide on what we’re gonna’ believe in what we’re not gonna’ believe in? They’re all a bunch of phony sonofabitches anyway. Chris: While we’re talkin’ about getting hauled of to jail, do you wanta’ take this opportunity to clear up the legend of the cops starin’ you down at the Buddy Holly Festival, that I’ve heard so much about? Cary: What happened was: I was on stage with Robin Griffin and there was a cop settin’ of in the shade with his sunshades on. He was just a guy that was like a security guy. But he was a Lubbock police officer. This was when they were still able to call it the "Buddy Holly Festival" before Maria Elena Santiago Holly Diaz got ahold of it. When she got ahold of it…Of course, we can’t call it that anymore. Chris: What is it called? Cary: Some stupid name…"The Music Crossroads of West Texas" or somethin’ like that. Chris: So that’s what your song "The Seventh of September" is all about? Cary: Part of it is. Do you know that that woman had a beautiful opportunity to have an entire town as her friend. And instead, she didn’t have sense enough to understand that. She got money involved in it, somehow. And she had…If she was sick one of these days, for example, and she really needed someone to help her, the entire city of Lubbock would have given her a hand! As it stands now…They don’t want to have anything to do with her! She let money get in the way of that! She had the City of Lubbock in the palm of her hand! All she had to do was say, "Use the likeness of Buddy’s name because…Because! For God sakes, He’s from Here!" [Cary is furious]. "This is where it all started! I’m just some Puerto Rican chick from New York that was married to him for six months!" What the hell is that all about?!!! Chris: Yea. Okay…[Laughing] Alright! Time out! That’s good; I’m glad you said that…But go back… Cary: Oh, Yea! Chris: …Go back and tell me the story about The Buddy Holly Festival. Cary: I was singing onstage with Robin Griffin. There was a cop sittin’ in the shade. And he wasn’t even really payin’ attention to me at first. And then he started payin’ attention to me. I did the song "Jesus Silverstein" which is kinda’ throwin’ a dart at Jesus…well, not really throwin’ darts at Jesus… Chris: No, it’s not. Cary: It’s just sarcasm. It’s just makin’
ya’ think a little bit. And it didn’t go over very
well with the cop AT ALL, apparently. The next thing I know,
another cop shows up…And he’s not settin’ in the
shade anymore, either! He gets up…And another cop walks
up; another cop walks up; another cop walks up… Back to "Why do you write songs?" When you’re in an environment of these narrow-minded thinkers, a lot…y’know, some of these Lubbock cops have real short hair and they all wear the same kind of sunglasses that wrap around…Well, you begin to feel like you are in a throw back… You’re, "Wait a minute! These guys could be the Bad Guys!" And they’re probably not, most of ‘em. but it looked that way at my end! Anyway what happened was; The next thing I know, Don Caldwell - who’s in charge of the festival that year - all of a sudden he’s on a golf cart - And people laugh about it; they said he came around in the golf cart on two wheels he was drivin’ so fast - Don comes around the corner and he, literally, puts on the skids…And the cops were sitting around waiting for him "to do something" about me. Y’know, "What are we gonna’ do about this smart-ass?" I think that I had also done the song "Leave It to
Your Beaver," too. And that didn’t sit well with
‘em. You’re outside, y’know, and you got "all
the world" to hear ya’; although there wasn’t
very many people there... And I thought, "Goddamn! If I had been doing the same thing in Austin, Texas, nothing would have happened!" Nothing! Everybody just would have gone on about their business! Can’t do that kinda’ shit in places like Midland or Lubbock… Chris: You told me the other night that you patted Don Caldwell on the head. Did you really pat him on the head? Cary: Yea. I reached down and I did like this. [Pats the table in front of him] ‘Cause I was good 5 or 6 feet above him. He’s standing there lookin’ up at me and I just leaned down and patted him on the head, and said, "It'll be alright, Don. Don't worry." It was blown out of proportion to a large degree, too. But Don...I don’t think Don was giving a shit one way or the other. It’s just that somebody had to be called who was "in a position of authority." And he was the one running the show… Chris: He was like, "Whatever you’re doin…STOP!" Cary: You know…Jack Burk said, "The best
thing that coulda’ happened to ya’ is if they cuffed
you and hauled you off to jail." [Laughs.] Because it would
have brought to the forefront the fact that this was all silly.
Of course, it didn’t happen so it’s all just speculation. Chris: Okay. We just had to get that cleared up. So many people have told me that story…. You had told me that you have actually sold more albums in outside of the United States than you have here. Cary: I haven’t sold tons of records, number one.
Let’s get that straight. But I would say, maybe "more
by a hair"…More than I ever dreamed I would sell over
there in Europe. KUT and KSYM out of San Antonio, same way, KFAN… There are stations in this area that do support things that I do. But, y’know, if you really look at it: How many hundreds of stations are there in the area, and you’ve got 3 that I can think of that are playin’ that kind of music. And that’s it! Chris: Well, because the rest of ‘em are all owned by the same one or two people. Maybe that’s the thing. I was gonna’ say, "Why? Are European fans just smarter and hipper?" But I don’t guess that any of us believe that. And maybe that’s the "bullshit callers" things; Maybe it’s just that we’re not getting to hear Cary Swinney on the radio. Cary: Because "Corporate America" controls it. Chris: Now tell me about how you know Ruidoso. But tell me about your "day-job." Cary: Well, my "day gig" is to do a map of the City of Ruidoso, among other things. But that’s just one of the things that I do. I’m kinda’ real lucky. I get to do it on my own terms. In other words, I don’t have to be somewhere at a specific time. Just as long as I get what work I have ahead of me done, then I’m in good shape. Chris: So you spend a lot of time up there in Ruidoso. Cary: Yea. I really do. But I had decided a long time
ago, if I’m gonna’ work Ruidoso I might as well learn
the birds in the area. And so I started hiking the area aggressively;
I mean, every trail I could find. I just about have done all
of them. And there’s miles and miles of trails up there.
But - the Ruidoso thing: I don’t take my guitar. I leave it in Lubbock. I don’t take anything that reminds me of the music when I go up there. Chris: The other night, I had asked you about your music and why you did it ; I wrote down, then, to ask you: "Is your music a method for supporting your hiking habit? Or does your music get in the way of that?" I had asked you then if you were using your music to supplement your love of the outdoors? Why you weren’t pursuing music full-time. You told me Richard [Bowden] gets mad because you won’t do it full-time. Cary: He use to really want me to do it full-time. But if you do something all the time, full-time, it’s "a job." And I didn’t want music to become a job. I had the luxury of being able to do the hikes and make money in that part of the world; And make money playing music, too. So it’s kind of a balancing act that I do. Some guys really and truly want "the Fame." I don’t
think they give a shit about the money. I don’t want a job. I wanta’ have fun when I go play.
That happens a lot;. You see these guys when you go out and play…If you can follow guys around - and I have a little bit - you see them playin’ the same thing, and you can see that it’s getting’ old. And that’s it; End of story. I never know what the hell Richard Bowden is gonna’ play!
Chris: I think that’s one of the things I like about Lubbock music. The other night we were talking about the "tightness" of Austin or L.A. or California audiences versus the "looseness" of a Lubbock audience: in Lubbock, you feel like the audience is participating more. They’re much more likely to yell a big "Yeehah!" I have much more fun being in an audience in Lubbock than I ever do in Austin or than I ever do in California… Cary: Do you know that I hear that all the time?! I swear to God, people from Austin and San Antonio and Austin, specifically, will come to a show in Lubbock, and they always leave sayin’, "This was different! Why is it so different?" I mean, they get to Lubbock and there’s not a helluva lot there. But then, "What happened? Why was that so much fun?" And I’m like, "Well, I can’t explain that. I don’t know. I truly do not know. It doesn’t make any sense to me either." It’s allusive. San Antonio is very similar to Lubbock in that way. But Austin is not. I think it’s because there are so many "professionals" here in Austin. It's just saturated with "professional musicians." I think that they might take it a little more seriously.
Chris: [Laughing] Say that again! Completely start over… Cary: Okay. This guy killed himself and so in his suicide note he had asked that I play at his funeral. I didn’t know him but he wanted me to play "The Dream Song" and "Will They Bury You With Your Shoes On?" at his funeral. So his brother, who I know, called and said, "Can you come play this funeral?" I knw the guy. His name was Ted. But I didn’t know his brother. Ted said I met his brother. His name was "Dutch" and he was a nice enough guy, I’m sure. But he killed himself….um… So I go to play the funeral. I go to this barn outside of Plainview; That’s where they’re holdin’ the funeral. They’re not doin’ it in church. They’re doin’ it in a barn. I show up at the funeral and when I get there, they come to me and say, "Not gonna’ happen. You ain’t playin’." Between the day that I got the phone call and I got to the funeral, it was decided by the family that I was NOT gonna’ play. He wanted me to do "Will They Bury You With Your Shoes On?" Well, that’s a song about a funeral home director; y’know…a "stick ‘em in the ground" kinda’ guy. Well, that’s what his dad did for a living! Chris: Oh, You’re kidding! Cary: So somewhere or another maybe I twisted up his head and didn’t mean to. But anyway, he killed himself. So I go the funeral. They have this big "hoorah"…They’re
saying, "We don’t want you doing that song; We don’t
want you doin’ anything!" And I was glad. Oh, I was so relieved! I was thinking, "Goddammit, I do not want to fuckin’ play at this funeral. Please! Just get me off the hook here!" But then they decide I can sing one song...since I was there and everything. Chris: So you can play one song. But you can’t play "Bury You with Your Shoes On"? Cary: Right. ‘Cause that would offend the father, I guess - who was a funeral home director at one time. So I did "The Dream Song," at the funeral in this barn. And so there’s this line… I’m singing the song and all of a sudden it dawns on me what I’m sayin’ and what I’m talkin’ about… [singing a line from the above mentioned song] "Ah Shit! I’m dead!" So I get to this part in "The Dream Song" about the death and goin’ to Hell and all this shit… "I guess I dreamed…I guess I did…" And I go into that thing. And I’m singing it in front of this bunch. I never had really thought about it. And all of a sudden I’m goin’, "Oh God!" [Laughs] Chris: Why did you pick that song? Cary: ‘Cause that’s what the dead guy wanted! I tell you one thing: His brother damn sure got it done. ‘Cause they sure didn’t want me to sing that day. So I sing to this group of very conservative "Christian"
bunch…And I’m singin’ this song....
…So I got through and they’re all just settin’ there lookin’ at me. And I thought, "What the hell must they be thinkin’ about?" And I set my guitar down, and I just went and sat down, y’know. Chris: You’re lucky you weren’t shot! Cary:
I'm talkin’ about sayin’, "There is no hell!"
Chris: I mean, you’re lucky you weren’t shot…
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Wally
Moyers had made a comment to me. He said, "Cary,
every time I play with you, it’s different." And I
said, "Good!" Because…God! The last thing I wanta’
do is play the same old thing...And Richard damn sure doesn’t
want to get into it. Richard’s ready to play whatever he
feels at that particular night. He doesn’t want to have
to have to play the same grind, y’know…the same lick
constantly. That’s no fun.